So You’re Thinking About Quitting Your Job…

EMILY CAULFIELD: Amy G, so we happen to be talking in the midst of the Great Resignation of 2021. A lot of people this year have quit their jobs or are thinking about quitting their jobs; and this idea of whether or not to quit a job and how to quit your job are questions that nearly all of us will consider at some point during our careers.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. I’ve definitely thought this through for myself a few times.

EMILY CAULFIELD: Yeah. So, you’ve been writing about this topic for years, and recently you gathered together HBR’s best advice, and you wrote a guide.

AMY GALLO: That’s right.

EMILY CAULFIELD: So, let’s go through the steps, how you do it.

AMY GALLO: All right.

EMILY CAULFIELD: So, the first step that people need to think about is whether or not they’re really ready to quit and whether or not they want to quit.

AMY GALLO: This is an important question. I mean, I think we’ve all had days, weeks, months where we have thought, I am done with this job and we feel ready to move on, especially in, in the middle of what is happening right now, the Great Resignation. Some people are calling the Big Quit, right? It can be tempting to think that’s the answer, but you really want to think through three questions. This is advice that comes from career coach Priscilla Claman. And you want to think one, am I working for the right organization? Am I in the right position? And am I positioned or set up for the future career that I want? If the answer to any of those three questions is no, then you need to think through, OK, can I change that? And if not, will I be able to say yes to those three things If I move to a different job or if I’ve set myself up for a different type of career?

EMILY CAULFIELD: OK.

AMY GALLO: These are sort of the first signals for you, or the sort of first test, the litmus test, of, is this the right decision? Am I really ready to leave my job?

EMILY CAULFIELD: So, if somebody is asking themselves, Am I working for the right organization? what kind of thought process would they be going through that would tell them whether or not this is an organization that they want to continue with or not?

AMY GALLO: Yeah, I mean, that’s going to be different things for different people, of course. You want an organization whose values are aligned with yours. So that’s one question, right? Does this company operate in a way that’s aligned with what I care most about? Is the company doing something that I think is important or that matters or that I can get behind? You know? And then there’s also lots of questions around how healthy the business is. Are profits down? Is the culture toxic? Are decisions being made that are irrational? Are people that you respect leaving the company to go do other things, right? These are all things you want to consider when you’re thinking, is this the right organization, the right place for me.

EMILY CAULFIELD: OK. That’s really helpful. Now, next, am I in the right position?

AMY GALLO: So, you know, again, are you doing something that you find enjoyable every day that’s aligned with your values? And it doesn’t mean you have to enjoy it every single day. I have had jobs that I loved that some days still felt like a slog, but you know, Is this the right role in that you can bring your best talents to bear that you’re being rewarded fairly for bringing those talents to bear? Where is there another position within the organization, maybe you’re in finance and you’re really excited about what’s actually happening in marketing, or maybe you’re in a manager role and you actually don’t enjoy the process of managing other people.

EMILY CAULFIELD: Right.

AMY GALLO: Again, lots of factors that go into whether it’s the right position, but is it aligned with what you find interesting, exciting, rewarding.

EMILY CAULFIELD: Yeah, that’s really good. Because I could imagine somebody going to a new organization and doing the same role and still having a dissatisfying work experience.

AMY GALLO: Yes, exactly. And that’s actually a really great question to ask yourself, Are the problems that I’m experiencing here, are they things that are likely to follow me elsewhere? It’s not always easy to answer that question, but it’s certainly something you want to consider.

EMILY CAULFIELD: OK, and so the last question, Am I positioned for the future career that I want?

AMY GALLO: So, of course this necessitates that you have some sense of what you want to do in the future, but even thinking about things like, Am I learning? Am I given opportunities for development? Do I have a good reputation here? Am I respected? Do people reach out to me for my advice or my thoughts? And also, are you developing a network that’s going to set you up for the job you want in the future? You may not stay in this particular job forever, but are you making connections that might be useful later on, which would be a reason, reason to stay, even if it’s not the job you’re going to want in 5, 7, 10 years.

EMILY CAULFIELD: OK, yeah, that’s really important to consider that. I probably wouldn’t have thought about in that way. In the past, when I’ve thought about quitting jobs, the advice that I get from everyone is that you need to have a job to get a job. So, don’t quit your current job before you have another job lined up. I’ve always been kind of iffy about that, but I want to know what you think about it.

AMY GALLO: Well, why have you been iffy about it?

EMILY CAULFIELD: Because sometimes when you’re in a job that makes you feel burnt out, you’re like, well, I want a break.

AMY GALLO: Right.

EMILY CAULFIELD: And it’s hard to put your best foot forward if you are unhappy in a job. So, if you are unhappy in a job, looking for a new job just sounds like torture to me.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Well, and also I’m sure you’ve heard that looking for a job is a full-time job, right? So it’s hard to look for a job when you’re, when you’re in a job that demands a ton of you. You know, I think that advice is true in a tight job market. You know, if you leave without something lined up, you’re not sure when your next opportunity is going to come along. And I think there also used to be the conventional wisdom that gaps on resumes reflected poorly on you as a candidate.

And I think in today’s current environment, I think one we’re much more forgiving of gaps, especially during the pandemic, people have had to leave jobs for all sorts of reasons. So I think people tend to be more forgiving of those gaps and to it’s there are lots of jobs to be had right now. So, you know, that’s not to say if your finances are tight, that you can leave your job without another one lined up and be sure you’ll have one within a month or within two months or whatever, however long. So, it’s really a personal decision, I think, around your finances.

EMILY CAULFIELD: OK, so when you have decided that you’re going to quit, who should you tell first?

AMY GALLO: So, you know, as someone who has lots of friends at work, the idea that I would keep that secret from my friends before, you know, before telling my manager is just unrealistic .

EMILY CAULFIELD: It’s not true.

AMY GALLO: It’s just not true.

EMILY CAULFIELD: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: But the ideal way to do it is to tell your boss first. You want your manager to be the first one to hear that news, you don’t want to take the risk that your manager hears it from someone else. You want to be able to control the message you give to your manager because they also ideally will be a partner in helping you figure out your transition out. And they will be the best partner if they feel like you have gone to them with this news first.

EMILY CAULFIELD: Yeah, that seems like a safe decision. I have had friends leave jobs before and like I got the announcement email and be like, how could you not tell me before you told the boss?

AMY GALLO: Right. Yeah, well, and it’s funny sometimes, especially if you’re close with someone and they don’t tell you, but then things like they’re like “I was sick today,” and you’re like, I don’t think you were sick. You know, you start to get the sense. There may be a little wink, wink, we know what’s going on, even though we’re not discussing it, and we understand why.

EMILY CAULFIELD: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. When you do have that conversation with your boss, what reason should you give them? Should you tell them the whole truth?

AMY GALLO: So, if the whole truth is that you hate working for them and you think the company is a sinking ship, please do not tell them the whole truth. I’m a big fan of being straightforward and honest. I think it’s important. But I do think you also have to consider that this person is likely to be a reference in the future. There may be a chance that you want to come back to work for this organization someday, and the world can be small. So you never know when that person’s gonna pop up into your life or in your network again. So, I think you want to be honest, but you really want to look forward.

EMILY CAULFIELD: Right.

AMY GALLO: So the reason is, what are you leaving for, not what are you leaving behind. Now, If the reason’s not your manager and maybe there’s some issues in the organization that you’ve talked about with your manager before, you can certainly share those. But I, again, I think you really want to focus on, here’s why I’m leaving. I’m looking for a break. I’m looking for a new opportunity to do X, Y, and Z. I want to make a pivot in my career, you know, the positive things that have nothing to do with the organization that you’re currently in.

EMILY CAULFIELD: So, what if the reason that you’re leaving is more money or a better position than maybe the promotion that you wanted at your current job or your previous job? Would you be totally honest about that information?

AMY GALLO: Ideally, you’ve already asked for the raise and the promotion that you want at your current organization. So, I would be honest about that because I think that’s probably a conversation again, hopefully you’ve been having with your boss about wanting to be paid more feeling like you’re, you’re worth more feeling like you ready for a different title, position responsibilities. I think that’s totally fair.

I think if you do make it about money, you have to consider whether you want a counteroffer. I would do some thinking ahead of time about whether you would be willing to accept that. Is this really purely about money? I don’t think that’s often the case. I think that’s usually one of many factors for people, but if it genuinely is, think through what, if they come back with that 20% raise? What if they matched the salary, would you be willing to stay? If you’ve had the conversation you’ve asked for the raise, they’ve said, no, you’ve gone through the effort of going out and getting another offer. And then they say, yes, then you have to consider, well, like, do I want to work at a place where I have to get an outside offer to get a raise? I mean, there’s many places where that’s the culture, that’s the sort of unspoken rule. That’s the only way you’ll get a raise and you have to consider whether you want to stay in a place like that. Does that make sense for you? And it may.

EMILY CAULFIELD: I know it’s customary to give two weeks’ notice, but for some reason in the past, that’s always felt like too little to me. And I’ve always promised a little bit more time than that is two weeks, the right amount of time, or how much notice should we give?

AMY GALLO: You know, I’ve been meaning to look into the origin of the two weeks. Like where did that come from? It seems so arbitrary in some ways. And I have to say it does feel short to me both when I’ve left jobs and when I’ve had colleagues leave, I’m like, well, wait, you’re going to be gone in 10 working days.? Like, how is that possible? So it is, I think customary, and I think most people will accept, if you give two weeks, they won’t raise a stink.

I do think, especially if your job is intertwined with other people, with your colleagues, I would consider giving, giving more. And I think you want to give enough that you can transition your responsibilities, maybe be around to train your replacement if that’s a reasonable amount of time, but not so long that you feel like you’re lingering. Sometimes the two weeks is customary because you need to start this other job. It may be that your new job is saying, Hey, we need you to start as soon as possible. I’ve actually had people come to me and say, my new job wants me to start within one week. Can I give one week’s notice? And I typically advise against that just because I do think it puts your current employer in a tight position. I think it’s the kind thing to do to give three, four weeks, sometimes even a couple months.

EMILY CAULFIELD: Right. Amy, does your advice change if you’re a manager and you’re leaving your job?

AMY GALLO: I mean, I think the greater your responsibilities, the longer you want to give, because it’s going to be harder to extract yourself. I’m channeling Amy B here who often speaks from her experience as a manager. And I can’t imagine she wouldn’t say you need more time to carefully transition those relationships to say goodbye, to set those people up for success in what might be a period of time where they don’t have an active manager.

EMILY CAULFIELD: So, say you are interviewing for a job, and you expect that if you do get the job, you will have to leave abruptly. Do you think it’s wise to begin sort of like training people while you’re still working there or writing up your guide and doing that kind of work before you have actually gotten the next job?

AMY GALLO: Yeah. I mean, that would be an incredibly conscientious thing to do and very kind of you to spend your extra time. I’m sure you’re stressed out interviewing for jobs and trying to think about what’s next for you. But I certainly think like making notes about who you would pass projects on to maybe including some of those people in meetings, so that they’re up to speed. You just have to be careful if you’re not being transparent with your boss or with your team that you’re looking for a job that you don’t send them signals that you’re thinking about leaving.

EMILY CAULFIELD: So, in the past I’ve gotten advice that you should basically always be interviewing or always be job searching just to kind of see what jobs are out there, see what your value is. What are your thoughts, Amy, on interviewing at different places for similar or different jobs to try to come to the answers, to those questions that you were asking earlier, whether or not I’m working for the right organization, or am I in the right position or in my position for the future career that I want?

AMY GALLO: Yeah. I’ve heard that advice too. And interestingly, I just find the whole idea exhausting that you have to be like constantly looking for jobs, constantly interviewing, putting yourself out there. That’s not to say I don’t look at jobs on LinkedIn, that I’m not keeping tabs on organizations that I’m interested in. What are they up to? You do want to have a sense of what’s going on in the job market that you’re interested in. The tricky part about that is that when you go on those interviews, you are going to see the best version of that organization. So you risk falling into the grass-is-greener club and you start seeing these shiny objects. You know, you’re comparing a first date to a marriage basically where you’re seeing the best of the organization, ideally in an interview process with an organization that you’re currently in or you’re seeing all the good, bad and ugly.

You just have to keep in mind if you choose to do that, if you have the energy to do it, keep in mind that you’re not seeing the whole picture. I mean, one of the other things about always interviewing is you’re updating your resume. You’re working on cover letters, you’re in practice. So then if you do have to look for a job a little bit more suddenly than you expect, you’re ready for it. So I don’t think it’s bad advice. It’s just whether you actually have the energy, time, interest in, in doing that right.

EMILY CAULFIELD: Amy, this was such great advice. I think you’re definitely going to make what is a very difficult decision, a lot easier for people.

AMY GALLO: I hope so. Although all of this advice, we’ve just talked through, we’re giving it in a vacuum. We’re not feeling all the emotions that often accompany this decision, guilt and fear and anxiety, and maybe even like excitement and all of those emotions, you know, make it hard to see clearly what you need to do and influence how you carry out this advice. And we really wanted to address that as well. And we had a listener write into us from New Zealand named Hannah, and she had seen a video I’d done about quitting and used it to prepare for her conversation. She actually wrote to us right before she was about to have the conversation with her manager, telling her that she was going to leave, and was quite nervous about it.

HANNAH: I thought that my boss would be angry just because the team is really short-staffed, and it was only a few weeks prior that kind of our program manager said in our team meeting, “Gosh, if we lose another staff we’re absolutely stuffed.”

AMY GALLO: And I actually had the opportunity to speak with Hannah after she had spoken to her boss and informed her team and made plans for what was next. And it went a little better than she expected.

So Hannah, I understand you’ve watched the video that I posted on LinkedIn about quitting. I’m curious how your process of quitting differed from what I talked about in that video.

HANNAH: Probably the only part of the process that differed — because I watched your video a few times and took notes —

AMY GALLO: Thank you.

Hannah: was the amount of notice that I gave my employer. So, I gave probably more notice than you recommended, just because I felt quite guilty and bad about leaving the team in the first place, given we were critically short-staffed to begin with.

AMY GALLO: So, how much notice did you give?

HANNAH: Three months?

AMY GALLO: That’s a long time.

HANNAH: Yeah, and I’m only contractually obligated to give one month.

AMY GALLO: Oh wow. So, the guilt you felt or the responsibility you felt to the team, how big of a factor was that in your decision to quit? How much were you thinking about that when you were making the decision?

HANNAH: I knew it was the right decision to resign, but it held me back from leaving when I really did want to leave. I felt that I had to give a lot of notice, and it left me feeling quite anxious about having the conversation. And I talked to a few friends just to talk through what I was going to say and what they thought about it. All I really wanted someone to say was, just do what’s best for you, and don’t worry about the reaction from the manager.

AMY GALLO: Did anyone say that?

HANNAH: No, that’s what I really wanted someone to say.

AMY GALLO: So, let’s step back for a moment. And can you just explain the reasons why you were leaving?

HANNAH: Sure. So, I had three main reasons of why I wanted to leave. The first one is that I wanted to return back to my hometown to be with family. My mom has been sick the last couple of years, and now my dad’s really sick. And with Covid and lockdowns — we have had a few of those lockdowns here in New Zealand — you kind of realize you can’t go home when you want to. So, family is the main one; and also I’ve got family returning from overseas as well. Yeah, just kind of that time in our lives as a family, we’re connecting back with Maori and [Maori word for “family connections”], which is our family connections, given we’ve been disconnected for a couple of generations.

AMY GALLO: That’s great.

HANNAH: The second reason is that I have some other life goals that I want to achieve outside of work. A big one is to do the Te Araroa, which is a trail, a hiking trail, that goes from the top of New Zealand to the bottom of New Zealand or vice versa, depending on what way you want to do it. And that’s five months. So, I really wanted to do that. And then the last reason is that I’ve been working on climate change more broadly than the job that I’m in now, but I would really like to return to the water sector specifically.

AMY GALLO: So, to be clear — first of all, I’m, I’m sorry about your parents — to be clear, you’re not leaving for another job. There’s not another job lined up right now. Is that right?

HANNAH: Yeah, that’s right. I’m going to do the Te Araroa and yeah, it’s too early to put feelers out for a job post hike.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. I’m thinking about that conversation with your boss and how did the conversation go in your view?

HANNAH: And actually like, I was so anxious about it, and it couldn’t have gone any better. My boss was really understanding and supportive. She offered to be a referee. She totally understood — she has a family herself — that family comes first. She was really, really gutted of course — didn’t see it coming. She was really grateful that I’d given that extra notice. Maybe not all bosses will be as understanding, but she certainly was.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. I want to go back to making the decision. Is there anything you would’ve done differently about either preparing for the conversation or making the decision now that you know that the outcome wasn’t as scary as you anticipated?

HANNAH: I think I did the right thing preparing a lot. I always liked to prepare for whether it be resignation conversation or an interview. I think maybe I would have given less notice in the end having known how well that conversation went. It might’ve resigned a little bit earlier.

AMY GALLO: Do you have any advice for women who are considering leaving their job and are feeling all those feelings you were having of guilt and anxiety?

HANNAH: I guess just know inside that you have to do what’s best for you. There’s more to life than work, too. If you’re in the fortunate position to be able to take a break between jobs and go on an adventure like the Te Araroa or some other thru-hike or whatever else is on your bucket list kind of mid-career and prepare for that conversation so that some of those anxieties are reduced.

AMY GALLO: Hannah, thank you so much for sharing your experience. I’m so relieved to hear how well things turned out for you.

HANNAH: Yes. Thank you, Amy. And I’m just hoping that New Zealand gets vaccinated and that we’re able to return to a life that’s somewhat normal and I can complete the trail.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, what I got from Hannah’s story was the emotional piece that really sort of completed the picture for me.

EMILY CAULFIELD: Yeah. I think she brought me back to the times when I’ve left my jobs in the past and how difficult that decision really is.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Well, in all the like practical, here are five tips for quitting your job, doesn’t really capture that, you know, they can help make it easier to do, but they’re not going to get rid of the guilt and the concern that everyone’s going to be mad at you that Hannah so clearly expressed.

AMY BERNSTEIN: But they will help you address the big question: Am I leaving for the right reasons?

EMILY CAULFIELD: Yup.

AMY GALLO: Right. But I guess that’s the point of those emotions, right?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Definitely.

AMY GALLO: They give you pause, they make you reflect. And you know, I just ran into a colleague of ours who’s leaving and I could tell he was just having such an emotional day.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh God. Okay. I have to go exploit that.

AMY GALLO: Right. Can we convince him to stay?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Exactly,

AMY GALLO: But, and I think that’s, I remember this too, Emily, you’re bringing me back to the times where I’ve quit, where even when I knew it was the right thing to do, making the leap from thinking it through to having the conversation took so much emotional management on my part. Just handling the fear, the guilt, the concern and the reflection of like, is this truly the right thing to do?

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. And to me, this really speaks to this idea of work as much more than the tasks you do for eight or more hours a day. And that to be truly engaged in work, you’re buying in emotionally as much as anything, right?

AMY GALLO: Yeah. And to pretend that’s not happening, it doesn’t work.

AMY BERNSTEIN: No, it doesn’t. And also you’ve got to feel your feelings for goodness sake, right?

AMY GALLO: Yeah.

EMILY CAULFIELD: What I do really appreciate about the guide is that when I’m in those positions of having to make a decision that’s really emotionally charged, it’s really hard to get out of my own head and just decide like whether or not it’s the right decision.

AMY BERNSTEIN: So, Amy, you’re talking about how, when you’re feeling this welter of emotions, it sort of forces you to tap the brakes for a sec and reflect. And one of the things you really should reflect on is whether or not this decision is right for you for the long-term, right?

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Because those emotions are really focused on the short term, the conversation making the transition, but you really need to think about the long-term career impacts. And there was a great article written by Amii Barnard-Bahn about five reasons you might want to stay at your job right now because of the long-term impacts. And she, you know, includes reasons like you have a sponsor, which is incredibly difficult to find in a job. So you may be unhappy with certain aspects of the company or your position. But if you have someone who has your back, there’s great potential in that. She also talks about the fact that with so many people leaving, there could be new opportunities, positions, opening up projects that don’t have anyone at the helm that you could maybe take over. And you know, if you’ve been building the right relationships, you can make a move to take some of that over.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And the other thing to remember is that the balance of power has shifted to the employee at just about every organization. So, you have some juice today that you may not have had a few months ago..

AMY GALLO: Amy actually talks about that in the piece because she says, this is an amazing time to negotiate, right? So, if you have something you want, now is the time to ask for it.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And you said that before, don’t leave without asking for what you want.

AMY GALLO: Well, and I think about Ashleigh Shelby Rosette’s advice in our negotiation episode of, don’t negotiate against yourself. And I can imagine with all that emotion, you’re thinking, well, I don’t like this, and I want this, I want more flexibility, or I need more money, but there’s no way they’re going to give it to me.

AMY BERNTSEIN: Exactly.

AMY GALLO: Oh gosh. Talk about flashbacks. I’m thinking about all those times where I left a job so mad and never told anyone when I was mad about.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Wow. Is that where your advice about being straightforward in the exit interview comes from, Amy?

AMY GALLO: Well, you know, I do think you have to be political in that interview, but you know, nothing’s going to change unless someone says something.

AMY BERNSTEIN: I agree with you. I think this is your opportunity to make the world a better place..

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Emily, have you been honest in your exit interviews?

EMILY CAULFIELD: I think I have been, I think I have tried before exit interviews to ask for what I want because at that point I think, I feel like, well, if I’ve decided that I’m going to leave the job, I kind of have nothing to lose if I ask.

AMY GALLO: Yeah. Well, and I think — to bring it together, if you ask for what you want and you don’t get it or they can’t give it to you, like in Hannah’s case, because what she wants is not at that organization, then the emotion should be a little less, right. You should feel a little less guilty in that way. It’s sort of a mutual decision you’ve made to part ways and move on with your career.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Or at least that particular emotion, the guilt piece of it. But you know, I’ve left jobs where I didn’t like the boss or didn’t quite believe in what I was doing, but leaving behind the relationships, the comfort and familiarity, that was emotional.

AMY GALLO: We haven’t even talked about the fact that leaving a job has so many costs to it. The transition costs, you know, building your reputation at the new place, those connections, the strong ties you have in your current place, you lose a lot when you leave it. That’s not to say it should hold you back, but you have to be clear-eyed about what you’re giving up when you leave.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Including the, you know, I mentioned juice before, the influence that you have built up over time just by proving yourself every day.

EMILY CAULFIELD: Yeah.

AMY GALLO: Okay. Let’s take this and go talk to our colleague who’s leaving.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah, can you get him in here?

AMY GALLO: The colleague we’re talking about is a key part of our show. Adam Buchholz is our audio product manager, and he’s been an advocate for Women at Work, and we’re going to miss him.

AMY BERNSTEIN: Not just an advocate, but he’s been core to the growth of our whole podcast roster. He’s built it. He supported it. And, Adam, don’t leave us!

EMILY CAULFIELD: Thank you so much, Adam. Along with Adam, our editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Rob Eckhardt, Erica Truxler ,Tina Tobey Mack, and Elainy Mata. Robin  Moore composed this theme music. I’m Emily Caulfield.

AMY GALLO: I’m Amy Gallo.

AMY BERNSTEIN: And I’m Amy Bernstein. Thanks for listening.